Thank you… I try to be patient, but to be honest, as soon as I saw Sensescans had it, I went there. Running a small operation isn’t easy, and I understand that much. I hope everyone who reads your releases considers that before posting criticisms which aren’t fair for all of you.
they are working together on each chapter, it’s totally fine.
Oshit does the translation and typesetting and sensescans does the cleaning etc…
Or at least it’s how i understood it
I get a notification from the Discord announcements when a new chapter is up. I’d then come here first to see if the link is up, if not I’d go to Sense Scans to read it. Then come back here to leave a comment such as,
“Thanks for the great works as always Turnips.. Cheers!”
Then find another place to get Kingdom, I’m sure you can get a full refund from Turnip Farmers.
Beggars can’t be choosers and nobody cares about their opinions.
Wei joined the coalition war to wipe qin out- presumably bc they were a threat to conquer all china
We later forms this non-aggression pact… which means that weI wants juuko more than wei is scared of attack from qin later
Inevitable conclusion: wei never really feared qin would conquer all china. If they did, they wouldnt be at juuko… they’d be preemptively striking qin.
if anything, qin’s stronger since the coalition war…
So, wei joined the coalition for the spoils. (1/6 of qin)
They must have thought zhao’s real motivation was to save zhao’s own ass.
So: The other kingdoms are almost certainly underestimating qin’s potential.
And i see their points. If not for ouhon, mouten and shin being crazy awesome newbies, qin doesn’t have the Great General roster for this. (Which is exactly why riboku targeted and killed ouki… ). But if you didnt get the memo on qin’s rising dragons, they look crazy and soft.
I guess i’m predicting that this is a quiet turning point in the whole 1000 year war of 7 kingdoms. When Wei’s greed and shortsightedness led to their downfall, along with everyone but qin.
Even if its understandable, war is final and unforgiving.
Again, these gigantic army showing their inability to produce scouts. This is getting old Hara, armies getting “suprised” of 10,000+ strong group of people marching in the open.
Look at the map. Juuko’s not really “in” chu’s territory. Its almost an outpost. Thats the whole point of juuko.
Therefore, wei did not arrive by marching through chu.
So ur not talking about scouts.
You’re talking about “scouts in enemy territory.”
Thats called a spy.
Spy networks arent operated by slightly untrustworthy generals. So, you’re kinda wrong.
Karen would be the one to blame, but, really can you blame her? This was not a conventional move (understatement)
Re these generals: they were a bit distracted, mate. And again, you’re acting like this move was with precedent- as in, a third kingdom could reasonably be expected to show up, so, karen should have had spies watching all routes for that, in enemy territory, despite the risks.
Thats not the case, like, at all.
Please shut your mouth a about Hara-sama. And have a great day! Lol
No it’s not spy dumbass, that’s different. It’s called sentry. Spy have different job.
If you actually read history, even just Records of Three Kingdoms just so it’s more familliar with the Chinese history, it’s impossible to always “surprise” until the last moment about a 40k strong army. Generals are always aware if an army is incoming, the only time they are surprised are from ambushes. These “surprised” from the very last moment is bullshit ala lord of the rings.
So what if they’re distracted. Each army have sentries around it. Around each army there are people living and a 10k+ group of people will make tons of noise and impossible to miss, just from the nearby villagers and the clouds of dust 10k+ feet makes plus horses, from the noise, from the supply train and logistics following a large army.
There are 5 different armies in this battle. Thousands of soldiers. How the hell are they surprised that wei showed up? With those numbers and the way road systems work, it’s nigh impossible that chu should be surprised there’s an army making movements towards them.
And as a strategic location, there must be scouts monitoring every bordering army.
Yes, IRL this isn’t happening even with politics. Nobody stops monitoring one border because an army is coming from another. Qin would know too.
But it’s the needs of the story.
And they might be monitoring if not already heing attacked.
You are not getting that while a fortification is being attacked by one kingdom, attack by a second is unlikely to the point that only a fool would allocate resources to watch for that, unless spies said to.
Tyr’s absolutely correct. People keep forgetting about where Juuko is. Even the author said that “it stands at the crossroads”. You could literally throw a stone in every direction from Juuko to have it land in different countries. Chu just has significant influence in that territory, but even their own political leaders and generals have said that Chu itself cannot control the region – it’s those battle crazy warriors that do. They’d even cut down their allies without hesitation as shown in this chapter.
I am understanding enough.
Because they are on the border – which is what made the city valuable to begin with – they would be monitoring all other armies. You do not further allocate scouts, they are already there.
Just because one army shows up does not make the other scouting groups disappear. They should be all out there. You do not call in other scouts because they aren’t needed for fighting.
Just because they are attacked by one army doesn’t mean another would appear – alliances are made all the time and there are always vultures.
Chu in fact just witnessed this, being part of an alliance to destroy Qin.
The generals sitting there want a fight. They have far too many soldiers to only hold the city. They would have scouts out.
Wei needed to move soldiers about the same time as Qin, so the scouts that should be there should have found them.
If a general assume the rest of the world is static while they are being attacked, they are the fool.
So I don’t think your argument holds in the least bit.
His argument doesn’t holds in the least bit, and I’d add that even if another nation doesn’t join the party, being at a crossroad Qin could have walked a little in Wei’s territory just to catch Juuko from another spot.
So, even without an alliance, I’d keep scouting from every direction. If you could buy 10 minutes in a time like this, it could save your ass.
Tyr’s gonna apologize/enthusiastically support for anything that happens. One word: PLOT. That’s all, like half the things that happen in the manga are unreasonable IRL.
Firstly on the issue of scouting/spies, let’s assume everyone does this and Chu isn’t just being lazy. So unless the spies actually see something there’s nothing to report, so much when Ousen took a trip to Gyou they can be caught by patrols. So likewise any reasonable commander would set patrols to ward off scouts/spies and maybe this time Wei got the better of them.
Next off, they’ve been “surprised”. I mean Gouhoumei says he still needs to deploy his army which alludes his army isn’t battle ready. Unlike the Qin and Chu reinforcements that are small enough that they can just charge in assuming Wei brought at least 50,000+ it’ll take time. So in any normal sense Chu would have time to reform and simply face them. The issue is their already fighting.
I mean it’s completely obvious that Qin have never ever used scouts in enemy territory, when Kanki was sieging Gyou Riboku coming to lift the siege took him completely by surprise With absolutely no warning or time to prepare.
Or when Qin were attacking Choyou, Qin just went with their first plan rather than using the information that Gohoumei with reinforcements had arrived, with Ou Hon never developing a new plan to deal with the new Wei’s army composition and positioning as Ou Hon clearly had no idea where Wei’s or Qin’s armies were.
I can’t imagine that after 500 years of warfare in a post Sun Tzu China that any lesson will have been learnt about having knowledge of your enemy’s position or that of potential reinforcements. I mean going into this battle Qin had absolutely no idea of where possible allied or enemy forces may come from right?
Heavy Sarcasm aside. Qin do often use Scouts, in their own and enemy territory to try and stop themselves getting surprised. If they didn’t have men on fast, plus spare, horses in the expected path of any Qin, Wei or Chu armies then what are Qin’s strategists doing. Karen May very well have sent a huge number of patrols to blind Qin and try and figure out what they’re planning but I think that any general/strategist would be keen to get even 5 minutes warning and risk deaths/defections to get that information.
I’ll break it down for yall. Bc we ARE talking abt spies, that network would be run by Karen bc these general are not Chu natives.
If she got reports wei was on the move, and if wei was smart, karen would
Have seen multiple possible wei targets. Unless she’d also had spies in on the qin/wei meetings, which is extremely unlikely, juuko would have been very low on her list of possible targets.
Even so, she’d sent more than enough men to reasonably hold an “impregnable fortress,” so, she’s just sit back and wait.
Also, in case the difference between scouts and spies is still lost on ppl, a scout crosses an enemy border with an army. So, thats pretty easy, bc he/she is a scout and doesnt fight in border crossings.
A spy has to cross borders alone. So, its not like they can just go back to, say, juuko if they see an enemy army coming. Bc wei wouldve locked that border down as an anti-spy measure.
Borders are why spycraft uses secret ink and whatnot. See?
Don’t really know why we’ve got into some weird debate at who is a spy and who is a scout, it’s relatively straightforward are you dressed as a soldier or not when operating at its most basic level.
I’ll admit that bringing up Karen was unnecessary and has led to the discussion being diverted, however what it appears to be is that you are completely trying to confuse and derail the original debate as to why Qin were surprised by Wei and Chu reinforcements as any competent army, or you know what Qin have previously done in various battlefields, would have scouts to gather information and/or act as an early warning system, when moving through enemy territory.
If the spies were run by Karin even more reason that the Chu army was taken by surprise? Let’s assume her spies had perfect info, well how long would that information get to her? She’s in the capital not on the front lines, that message that Wei is coming to Qin’s aid would have taken time, and even if she was too say get an earlier warning, even if she sends “more aid” again that’s still time.
So gotta give thumbs up for the writing! Karin sees Moubu as doing something stupid, knows that he wouldn’t do that if he didn’t have a plan, and decides well I don’t know what your plan is but I suppose fighting another 30,000 Chu troops wasn’t part of it! So deal with it!
Right. In modern terms its like: lets say in a totally made up, not at all metaphoric nation called Grinare right now, a humor magazine published a “joke” just did that pissed off a lot of people. Some of those ppl might be angry enough to do horrible things. The Grinare police know this, so are on the lookout.
By the logic here, the police should have ppl planted in various organizations Around the globe that might try to hurt Grinare.
But thats not how it works. Thats not what police do, and, while an information network does exist, its a network, and, intellegence doesn’t instantly get to people on the front lines.
Thats just silly.
So ya, two or three thousand years ago, an army could realistically sneak up to a border. If there was enough stuff going on to distract the network. Like for example already being attacked by qin.
Btw, pls note I am praying for the safety of the Grinari. Or as close as I get to praying
Replying here because I can’t for some reason directly respond to Tyr’s map.
“Mouki sir, look at this map, we are attacking Juuko to the Southeast, but we have further enemies to the South, Chu, and a possible enemy/ally to the East, Wei, should we take the precaution of having scouts to the East and South to try and locate any army movements.”
Mouki – “My gosh, we can clearly see where Chu and Wei would potentially come from, sending out scouts in those directions to locate and get as much warning of incoming armies as possible would certainly seem to be a risk we need to take, I know it will be dangerous but we need that information. I’m sure my father, Moubu, would be happy with better knowing where enemies and allies are as I am certain he has had some character development since getting Ouki killed in a trap at Bayou by just charging blindly in.”
“But sir, we may not get much warning or soldiers may defect?”
Mouki – “Seeing as every minute’s warning could save hundreds of Qin’s soldiers, sending out whatever we can to gather information is obviously the priority.”
The whole point of those little lines, you see, is they denote “sphere of influence” PAST WHICH UD NEED SPIES OR ARMIES, BECAUSE ITS ENEMY TERRITORY AND IF YOU SEND ONE MAN, OR FIVE, they’ll die.
Partly im so shocked is, characters like moubu and tou have spent the majority of the series guarding borders. What do yall think they were doing? Tea parties and endless training drills? Bubble baths?
…maybe they were overseeing the soldiers watching for “scouts?” Just a thought
There is absolutely no need for scouts to cross the borders unless they have to, it is clear that Qin have a good idea of where possible enemies/allies are coming from because of where each state’s territories are, your scouts would be sent out in those directions to give your main army as much notice as possible that armies were approaching. Where the scouts are positioned depends on how much warning you are trying to get/risk you’re ordering them to undertake. If it’s 15 minutes warning from the main army then the scouts may still be within the Juuko region, the more warning you want the more likely they are to end up crossing borders to try and give you that warning, with the scouts obviously more likely to die the further they are away from the main army and the closer they are to enemy forces as they can’t escape being chased.
Balancing the risk and how much warning you get, and possibly having a high mortality rates amongst scouts to get you whatever notice possible to protect your army is the job of a commander, you order certain men to die to win/minimise the overall death toll. The fact that none of your scouts returned in itself useful information as a warning that there may be enemies coming from that direction.
You keep assuming those scouts would make it back if you send the. Across enemy lines. They’d have to cross the lines twice, alone. Please consider this assumption.
You may want to rethink your risk assessment for sending scouts across enemy lines. The whole point of enemy lines is to prevent men like scouts from crossing. Even if in this situation you are wei and qin, there’s no reason at all that would change.
Or, how about we compromise and say, ok yeah some fool did make scouts cross the wei border to look for armies. But wei, making an obvious-beyond-“textbook” move, increased border security before the attack.
The scout had to move ad quickly as possible to stay ahead of the army and make it in time for the report to matterz
When the border men saw a man in armor riding alone at full speed, they shot him with an arrow in the shoulder, then tortured him for info until he died.
…the wei army’s attack was a surprise. Because of The basic-beyond-textbook Anti-intellegence measures.
The first matathoner was a soldier. He saw an army successfully abt to sneak attack his, but they were 24 miles away. So he ran at full speed to get to his army to tell them. He died after delivering the message, but to honor him, his comrades ran a marathon every year.
Take-aways: 1) sneak attacks happened. PERIOD. 2) when one man’s efforts stopped one, he was remembered forever, so they were a thing that happened a lot. I mean, if no one in that army had ever had another army pop up out of nowhere, why would they have cared so much?
Sneak attacks depend on anti-intellegence. Wars are fought on multiple fronts.
Hi Tyr, hope you are well and I appreciate your efforts to find a middle ground, I also enjoy your history fact. However, I’m unsure as to why you are focussed on Qin scouts trying to cross Chu or Wei borders as I believe my premise clearly highlights that Qin scouts will only try to cross borders when absolutely necessary/forced to by Qin command, it is all dependent on how much warning Qin’s main army want to get (versus what they can get) without entering Chu or Wei.
I’m also confused as to why Wei will kill Qin scouts, rather than begrudingly forcing/encoruaging them back/giving them the message that Wei are helping Qin, when Wei (at least before the reader knows Wei notify Qin) know they have a 3 year alliance with Qin.
Also I’m not sure Qin can be sneak attacked by Chu or Wei, provided Qin deploy proper pickets, as Qin know going into this battle that this is where potential enemies will come from, particularly as you’ve highlighted, the strength of border guards suggests that troops will only be moving from their states territory rather than bulling through another states border guards to try and surprise other states.
To summarise, I still believe that Qin would try to get what warnings they could regarding possible enemy incursions/ambushes, so they can re-position troups where necessary, by treating scouts as disposable milatary assets if requried to gather data, known or inferred, on enemy/possible enemy troup positions.
I will say, yes, counter intellegence does not always mean killing known enemy agents.
But i dont really know or care abt the whole qin scout thing. Wei’s not going to make special arrangements to let qin spy, and, its already been written, moubu and mouten said “wait for word” (not scouts) and moubu didnt.
The original thing folk were mad at is “how wei snuck up, and whether it was believable.” I was talking about that.
You’re operating under the presumption that a border is static during the time two, three armies are fighting in the area?
10k soldiers is enough to be seen miles away… this is all kinda plot device rather that linear significant historical narrative. It’s a fun time, not how it would have been…
Hi Tyr, pretty sure that my thought process is clear that Wei would not allow Qin to cross the Wei border and instead at the very least would only begrudingly allow any Qin scouts to be caught by Wei on either side of the border to live at the very minimum. I also believe that my premise is relatively clear on the fact that Qin scouts crossing the Wei or Chu borders is only dependent on the amount of warning time the Qin forces are looking for.
Moubu has charged into the Juuko forces, however, given his development from Bayou through the coalition war, I cannot believe that he would just resort to “Hulk Smash” or his charge would prevent his HQ/Mouki having scouts to ensure that the Qin army did not get ambushed by Chu/Wei/Juuko forces with no warning.
Also I’m not sure why you have asserted that people, I assume Bulls, were originally mad just about the Wei army sneaking up. Looking at this chapter, there is reference to the size of the Chu reinforcement army (page 3 30k strong) and the size of the Wei army (page 14 ten’s of thousand). It seems that Bulls could be referring to either/or or both.
So whilst Qin thought that Wei may turn up, and even if they did may attack or ally with Qin. I’ll admit that the Chu army was more of a surprise but yet again I do not understand why Qin would not have had scouts in the direction (without necessarily crossing borders, i.e. could just be between the battlefield and national borders) of where they expected troops to come from so they weren’t caught completely off guard.
For real tho, some advice? “for examination of a leaf, the sight of the forest was lost.”
Consider that… the thing abt war and martial arts is, the guys and gals who focus too much on any one thing get eaten. So, even just to enjoy this, consider what it could mean to widen your gaze.
We have no idea what scale the map is or how big the Juuko region is, seeing as an army of 80k can sally out to fight to somewhere that appears to be outside the sight of the city, and the fact that modern day China is the 3rd largest country in the world, making a small region potentially substantial in size, I’m going to guess that Juuko is more than 60 steps from other state’s borders.
I can very much enjoy the manga without feeling like I can’t critique it, or feel like I have to listen to someone who appears to make random assertions and comments rather than actually respond on points of discussion. Have a nice day!
The fact that juuko soldiers could see moubu approaching, when he camped on qin’s side, and, the fact that qin camped on their side of the border to attack juuko clearly gives a sense of scale. Your field of focus was just too narrow to catch it
Hi Tyr, page 3, chapter 650, messenger riding from outside of the city to let Juuko know that Qin have bypassed Kishi and so therefore must be attacking Juuko, this also suggests that Moubu’s army is potentially in enemy territory at this stage but it is not clear, although Moubu being in Chu/Juuko territory would make it far easier for the Juuko scouts to know what they’re doing because they don’t have to cross Qin’s border.
It doesn’t seem that Juuko can see Qin from the city. We have no idea of the scale and how long the rider has ridden to get them the information. However, it is enough time for them to muster 80k troops and sally out to the Gecchi Plains. Which would presumably take hours as a minimum. So Juuko is probably of some size.. As armies, with infantry, move slowly you’d only need the Juuko region to be a few miles in diameter. Scouts on horseback detecting infantry movements even a few miles away could then give you quite a bit of warning.
If you’re a troll posting to see how many ignorant statements i’d respond to, slow clap: this is your victory
If not: juuko was introduced as being on the border of four nations, which is the whole point of juuko. And Monbu’s camped on qin’s side, not chu, so, ur just plain wrong.
I’m really hoping you’re a defy and calculating troll.
Just because you’re on the border of four nations doesn’t mean you have don’t have a reasonable amount of land surrounding the city to ensure you can grow enough food for 100,000s of people living in your city, Not sure Juuko would take handouts from Chu. Also seems that on page 15 chapter 650 Juuko controls a region rather than just being a city.
You’ve made a big deal about Qin not being able to know where Chu and Wei reinforcements would come from when scouts would have to cross border lines, so I’m not sure why you think Juuko would know about Moubu’s movement’s unless they’re moving through Chu/Juuko territory, and bypassing other Chu cities. Also not sure why you assert that Moubu must be in Qin territory. Looking at page 13, chapter 650, on Karin’s war table it doesn’t look like Moubu’s army is sitting on a border. The fact that there’s no fortifications, trenches or anything between the two armies would suggest that the armies are not fighting on a border.
The map on page 15 chapter 650, seems to be giving us an overview of the 4 bordering states, not sure that we know for certain that the army Moubu is with is the one on the Qin’s side. What those troops could probably be, are the 150k troops of Moubu’s main army that has been left on the border Qin-Chu border to protect it, page 11 chapter 650. All this would suggest that Moubu and 30k are almost certainly in Chu/Juuko territory.
Not sure where you’ll go from here, maybe throw some more insults around and wild assertions?
So to summarise, you disregard any points I’ve made based on evidence which suggests you’re wrong as to where Moubu’s army is and skip to insults. Rather you solely focus on the ancillary point of food production, rather than Juuko’s size which does seem to be a region rather than just a cuty. You disregard whether Juuko would accept food aid from the rest of Chu rather than try to be self sufficient as they seek like a pretty independent bunch. You disregard the fact that states constantly have civilians in disputed areas and actively move civilians to those disputed areas: Gyou, Choyou etc.
I’m still waiting for anything that resembles are reasoned point from Tyr the Troll or just more insults…
I do apologize for my rude comments, however. Historically, not being able to tell one’s ass from one’s hand re: battle is extremely common, and, its weirdly something that smart people struggle with the most, i think.
My source there is “the art of war,” which has a whole section on how the ministers and nobles will issue ridiculously stupid orders to generals on a regular basis, and advises generals what to do abt it.
It does not suggest “try to argue them into seeing reason.”
Sorry you haven’t figured this out. Tyr is literally THE fanboy that has zero tolerance for any other viewpoint other than those that fit in his narrow point of view. You’ll quickly be wrong and ignored in discourse with him.
My suggestion? Spend less time trying to prove a “Never Wrong” wrong, actually just call him out with more brevity instead. It’s satisfying.
Fair point Malpheus, for a fanboy he does seem to like to focus more on his art of war references and ignore what Hara has previously written in his manga, Karin’s map just must have quite a small scale with the Qin border just out of sight. Moubu also must have just moved his small army from Qin really really slowly to give Juuko plenty of time to ride out to meet him. and for Chu command to get the information that Moubu was moving, Karin to issue an order for reinforcements to go and for those reinforcements to arrive the same day as the Juuko army, thinking about that, Chu’s messenger hawks must actually be super fast.
We must also be in sight of the city and Juuko be a tiny region with some forests/hills blocking the line of sight South where Chu forces would come from, and east where the Wei border and Wei forces have come from, so the scouts even if you sent them out, whilst Moubu was moving really slowly, then couldn’t get you any warning whatsoever because the Wei border is so close and you couldn’t cross it and er some other reason why you couldn’t detect Chu reinforcements, or even try to. The forests/hills must also be there to allow forces to surprise and get the jump on you, rather than the Moubu army, and later Tou army, being able to see another army approaching from miles off, so they had very little time to react.
Like, suure maybe mobu did camp miles away from juuko, see, he wanted to make it really easy for chu to flank him, or, just march into his camp, kill all his attendants and burn his food. That makes sense
Ok, for real tho? This is to anyone else, other than these two- assuming maybe like 1 other really bored person cares
People here say things i disagree with all the time. I usually think nothing of it, i only fight (verbally) when i believe in something enough to. But, if someone asks a genuine question, and i think i can answer, i do, bc i believe in inquiry and communuty
I have repeatedly seen here inane attacks on the manga and hara. Far less, now, bc there’s an annoying asshole who points out the logical flaws of poorly thought critiques. But, when they reach a saturation point, people then start talking about being “done with kingdom- it affects KINGDOM’S GLOBAL FANBASE.
I want this story to be cannon.
That is enough reason for me to be ok with mal’s poor opinion of me. No regrets
See, the point of war is, your enemy is trying to beat you. So you have to think of all the things they might do- not just one- and come up with an inherently risky plan. The word for it is a “strategy”
That doesnt make any sense. You’d send your army south to attack, and yes, you’d have guys(scouts) keeping track of enemy movements as a matter of course.
If you need extra scouts to warn of your base camp being attacked, you’re camped too far away and are already screwed. You’d be allocating scouting resources poorly, unnecessarily tiring your men with needless long distance marching between base and field. You’re also widening the area your army needs to defend needlessly, and opening up your base camp to attack… so you’d need more camp guards, another total waste of resources.
Ok, thats it, i quit. If there was a point here, its been made
Sure, we agree now lol. We disagreed on things like “theyre dumb for not sending scouts over borders and the somewhat obvious small scale of the map of juuko/area of combat. And its implications of scout placement, intelligence expectations, and the validity of surprise attacks.
Mostly, we disagreed that hara got this wrong or didnt think it through. He didn’t, because he always does.
Okay, I don’t normally post but I feel the need to clarify a few thing after reading this argument as someone with a degree in military history. There are three terms that need to be defined here; spy, scout, and patrol.
First, a spy is not usually a member of the military or do they report to them. They were often managed by a separate branch located in the nations capital so that they could report directly to the higher ups. This is due to the fact that they often gained information of a non military nature. They never wore uniforms, and were sometimes not even members of the nation they were spying for but sympathisers.
Second, a scout is a profession working in the military and army that has existed since recorded history. There is also a difference between a scout and going scouting. A professional scout was often not a soldier, but a woodsman or hunter who could survive on his own in the wilderness as they often worked alone or in very small groups. They did so in order to not be caught by the enemy. They did not wear uniforms and often identified one another by call signs. They absolutely did cross borders by sneaking through the wilderness which armies could not effectively patrol. Horses did not ride in a forest, no matter the trail, at least not at any great speed as horses were far too valuable. Some generals were even reported to refuse to march without their scouts returning. Some scouts were even showered with gifts upon their return in order to entice them to stay as it was such a risky job. Scouts often fought amongst one another long before the armies ever saw each other.
Soldiers did scout in the form of larger scouting parties. But this was often far closer to hq or alongside the army to act as an early warning system. They only went further if the professional scouts failed to return alive. The Chinese loved to send body parts back of caught scouts. These scouting parties also acted to catch he enemies professional scouts that were getting close to their army.
Finally, patrols are not a function that was meant to gain information. Patrolling was a job given to soldiers or units in order to provide safety between camps or cities or even along a border. Yes they fought if necessary but they often provided safety through just their presence. You patrol between or along a designated route, not at random. Also, border patrols were not perfect, scouts often made it through and back again without death.
In conclusion, it is quite conceivable that Qin did not see the Chu reinforcements coming as they came from deep within an enemy nation. However, there is no chance that Tou or Wei snuck up on anyone as they moved along a border, a significant amount of scouts would have had to be hunted down and killed. Also, there is no army that moves faster than scouts, especially not with infantry that is fully armoured, or a supply chain for that matter. Added to this, an army on the move is extremely noisy and also kicks up an insane amount of dust that would be visible from a long way off especially when we’re talking of a force that numbers in the 10,000s.
These large surprise attacks you here about are usually pre-prepared ambushes that armies walk into, for example the Romans walking into an ambush laid by Hannibal. This is so to the fact that the ambushes are not moving and are keeping quiet until the order is given. In fact Juuko would have allowed Chu scouts to penetrate even further into enemy territory with more safety, not less.
A border is not an absolute boundary that no one could sneak across. A scout does not turn into a spy when crossing a border. A spy does not scout. This is a misrepresentation caused by people using terms incorrectly.
To end, I’m not upset by the lack of realism as it would be less enjoyable if the manga were realistic. I view this manga as a more fantastical telling of this period of history which moves toward historical fiction.
I hope this cleared up any misunderstandings you two had about military terminology and what would be historically accurate.
That is extremely helpful. Thank you. (I am not a military historian, just a dude)
I will consider what you’ve said. Everything you’ve stated sounds accurate: to a degree, i was using shorthand.
Non armored scouts could sneak across borders, but, they’d have to sneak. They also wouldnt have been ties to juuko’s army directly, that network would be an expense karin would not allow. Moubu doesnt seem the type, at all, to refuse to move, especially in this case. Clearly, from the convo with mouten, he respected his strength and trusted his chain of command. He wouldnt have bothered.
I 1000 agree about not being upset at the lack of realism. Soldiers at war spent an awful lot of time staring at eachother. Not a thrilling read 😀
I am still assuming the borders would be harder to pass, on wei’s side, given anti-intelligence associated with a surprise attack.
Sorry, to clarify, the generals of juuko defected to chu. I dont think it would be wise to allow them to operate information networks (spies or scouts, I retract stating it would ONLY be spies, thanks) in foreign soil, and, has factored that in. Juuko is considered to be impregnable, so, I’d think chu would see it as an unnecessary risk.
Sorry! Lastly, a question: the dust and noise of an approaching army, would they be visable on an active battlefield? Wouldnt the dust and noise from the active field obscure them?
Ive been wondering. I decided “yes,” but, uncertain.
Hm, answered for myself. “It depends on which way the wind is blowing.”
In this case, if the winds were blowing northeast, the dust from wei would not have been noticeable. If blowing southwest, it wouldve been very noticable: if another direction, it depends on factors.
LOL, like I said this “invisible large army suprise” is getting old and repetitive. We all know this is a romantic retelling of history, not real history. But what surprise me is that there is someone thought this is realistic and possible.
LOL, like I said this “invisible large army suprise” is getting old and repetitive. We all know this is a romantic retelling of history, not real history. But what surprise me is that there is someone thought this is realistic and possible.
Correct, Juuko would most likely not have access to the Chu intelligence network. However, they would most likely still have short range scouts to keep on an eye on their immediate surroundings.
And yes depending on the weather and point of view you may not see much dust or be able to hear over the sound of battle. Which is why most armies have light cavalry roaming about at their flanks. It is also why you see strategists in high chairs and positioned further back, in order to better their line of sight and to hear as best as possible.
And I whole heartedly agree, we must take Moubu and the Juuko generals as Hara presents them, very hard headed. They may not employ as many counter measures as other generals. And of course Tou and the Wei General, who are depicted as very smart, probably would have very advanced anti scout networks. We should probably just assume this rather than have Hara double the number of chapters in order to explain it, that would simply be bad story telling.
Overall, I think Hara is simply trying to convey the suddenness and chaos of the battle as nothing seems to be going exactly as planned, and no one predicted all of the events that have occurred or the parties that have arrived.
Word. Only two response: i assume juuko general’s advanced scouts have a limited range, based on my reading of the map. I assume that the scouts on both sided gave warning, just not much.
I think you’d agree- Hara is really good at arranging details like general’s personality and status to make unlikely outcomes situationally (more) plausible, and always and only to the end of making kindom
Exciting. He impresses me.
Oh, but it should also be mention, moubu and tou having intelligence networks in wei may have been a bad idea. They just signed a non-aggression pact, to qin’s benifit. Wei was sceptacle. Having any agents captured in wei right now could easily have diplomatic and military consequences.
Moubu may be crazy but i’m not positive he was wrong, past a point. Shouhunkein or whatever, he’s a commander to trust.
Apologies, accidentally commented a letter. Yes Moubu and Tou probably refrained from from scouting within Wei as that could cause and issue due date o perceived aggression. However, Qin would not remove spies in cover due to the length of time it took to establish them. In fact nations sort of expect it from one another even restraining themselves from revealing spies so as to feed them false information or to cause an incident when it is most opportune.
And yes Hara is very good at creating these scenarios. For me the most interesting part is Moubu’s insistence on the day of battle. Indeed the Juuko army even goes to him to fight on a battle field of his choosing, of course actually chosen by Shouheikun. This is actually very realistic. Ancient Generals were sticklers for punctuality as no forms of instant communication were available. Moubu engages the enemy thus keeping them occupied. The Chu reinforcements may have been unforeseen but Tou and Wei were definitely informed of the time and place. This meant that the two armies could possibly speed up the last part of their journey by leaving behind the supplies at a safe location and quickly close in on the enemy before they could properly disengage from Moubu.
So yes the details of the scouting may be left out for the sake of story telling. But the insistence of the exact day of battle is incredibly realistic. But Moubu would have to have extreme faith in Shouheikun to follow through with this which he does seem to have.
Hahaha, I shall try to comment more often. With Moubu’s response, it is worrying for a number of reasons.
First, Moubu seems to have far too much confidence in himself and his strength, there is always someone stronger, or at least there will be as he gets older and thus less physically in his prime.
Second, these plans do not seem to be his own or even those of his strategists. The inability to react to situations that are happening on the field due to the reliance on a strategy made weeks before can be problematic, no matter how ingenious the strategy.
Finally, his absolute trust in Shouheikun. Hara seems to stick with to history when it comes to the general loyalties of his characters and an absolute trust in Shouheikun may not be well placed (without giving too much away to those not fully read in this area of history).
Mouki’s talented enough to help w that, but i think moubu will continue to say “stfu, moubu SMASH!” To his objections
Heck, maybe he right, and so strong it doesn’t matter? Sure, that didnt work so well for him before when he charged into an obvious trap, but, maybe next time???
After seeing this big-ass discussion), I coudn`t help, but to add my 2 cents.
Any story should be viewed not from outside perspective, but from inside, meaning that if something is A in the story you should accept it as it is, even if IRL it`s C, D or E. But if it`s A in the story it must remain A and not become B without any explanation. Meaning that as long inner-story logic is sound and not self-contradicting it should be accepted as the way that world works.
I fully agree, implementing real world logic does not make sense here. However, discussing Hara’s use of the the portrayal of time can be interesting. Tou arrives with Rokuomi bear Moubu’s left flank, if I’m remembering correctly. Tou then engages on the left while Rokuomi goes to engage on the right. It is then immediately depicted that the Chu reinforcements arrive near the Qin right flank. In this most recent chapter it is then shown that Rokuomi has already fully engaged the enemy when the Chu reinforcements begin their assault. I highly doubt Hara expects us to believe that his armies teleport or can march an entire battle field in under 10 minutes. Thus I hope we can assume that he means this to show that there is a gap of at least an hour or two between these two events even though it only happens in a matter of a few pages. In this way we keep this discussion in the realm of Kingdom storytelling logic. How authors depict the passage of time is a part of their skill set that fascinates me.
Ya, hara’s use of detail is fascinating, but perhaps telling.
I’ve read accounts of battle geniuses, and a theme is “take advantage of the unique conditions of this particular battle. Which the enemy may not.”
Like the battle of st. Crispin’s day…
So, each battle depicted unfolds in specific ways Hara dictates, to create exciting battles.
But, a general would have to look at all the conditions hara manipulates to form a plan… is it really unrealistic, if we think that in manga kingdom land, hara=god? Lol
Update; i just read up on that st crispin’s day battle. My comparison still stands, but, for different reasons than I thought. I guess Shakespeare made up the part about rain mattering. It came down to “the small size of the field” adding effectiveness to english longbows, per wikipedia.
Ah you have chosen my favourite battle, the battle of Agincourt. Now I’m not sure I would call the strategy genius but rather a stoke of brilliance in an otherwise failure of a campaign. It was simple, and played to their strengths which is all it took. Now it is worth noting, that due to the lack of discipline in European feudal armies, uses of complicated formations were very limited and often battles became repetitive when it came to strategy. They used what worked. Of course there were a few nuances, but not as much signalling and mid battle changes from strategists as the more disciplined Roman and Chinese armies earlier in history. And you are correct a large part of English success was due to the narrow battlefield due to woodlands. But you were also right the first time, the terrain was muddy from rain, though it was not raining on that particular day. Either way a great battle that saved a doomed campaign and allowed for English dominance in the war with France.
Turnip Farmers
Thank you… I try to be patient, but to be honest, as soon as I saw Sensescans had it, I went there. Running a small operation isn’t easy, and I understand that much. I hope everyone who reads your releases considers that before posting criticisms which aren’t fair for all of you.
turnip is the one who do at sense scans bro…
its done by turnipfarmers..
so its the same
they are working together on each chapter, it’s totally fine.
Oshit does the translation and typesetting and sensescans does the cleaning etc…
Or at least it’s how i understood it
oh wait, Gongitraped always seems to be here too. I thought only Oshit remained. Seriously sorry for that guys
Ohshit has said several times that he submits the scans to sense but has no control over how long it takes to upload them.
Whine whine 😀
Yep, this right here.
gongitraped does the translation.
oshit does the typesetting and general QA things.
Sense Scans does the redrawing.
Sense Scans also does the releasing. We don’t have access to their website / reader so releases are done whenever one of their admins are free.
I get a notification from the Discord announcements when a new chapter is up. I’d then come here first to see if the link is up, if not I’d go to Sense Scans to read it. Then come back here to leave a comment such as,
“Thanks for the great works as always Turnips.. Cheers!”
This, anyone actually interested in updates should be here. Its a fount of Kingdom knowledge and community.
Thanks again, your consistent dedication is truly appreciated! Been reading since 2011.
Yey! Been waiting for this!
Thanks for the chapter!
Let us thank the almighty turnip for our daily kingdom!
Noice.
And Wei finally came 😀
Late as always
that’s rude and wrong at the same time, how do you manage such skills?!?
Late compared to what anyway?
Ignore him. He’s a ‘special’ kind of troll. The one that is still attached to his mom’s left teat with a diaper full of sh*t.
Then find another place to get Kingdom, I’m sure you can get a full refund from Turnip Farmers.
Beggars can’t be choosers and nobody cares about their opinions.
Gotta dig out an old one just for you:
hahaha this is gold 🙂
thank you:)
This chapter has global significance for kingdom
Wei joined the coalition war to wipe qin out- presumably bc they were a threat to conquer all china
We later forms this non-aggression pact… which means that weI wants juuko more than wei is scared of attack from qin later
Inevitable conclusion: wei never really feared qin would conquer all china. If they did, they wouldnt be at juuko… they’d be preemptively striking qin.
if anything, qin’s stronger since the coalition war…
So, wei joined the coalition for the spoils. (1/6 of qin)
They must have thought zhao’s real motivation was to save zhao’s own ass.
So: The other kingdoms are almost certainly underestimating qin’s potential.
And i see their points. If not for ouhon, mouten and shin being crazy awesome newbies, qin doesn’t have the Great General roster for this. (Which is exactly why riboku targeted and killed ouki… ). But if you didnt get the memo on qin’s rising dragons, they look crazy and soft.
I guess i’m predicting that this is a quiet turning point in the whole 1000 year war of 7 kingdoms. When Wei’s greed and shortsightedness led to their downfall, along with everyone but qin.
Even if its understandable, war is final and unforgiving.
Again, these gigantic army showing their inability to produce scouts. This is getting old Hara, armies getting “suprised” of 10,000+ strong group of people marching in the open.
Whine whine lol
Look at the map. Juuko’s not really “in” chu’s territory. Its almost an outpost. Thats the whole point of juuko.
Therefore, wei did not arrive by marching through chu.
So ur not talking about scouts.
You’re talking about “scouts in enemy territory.”
Thats called a spy.
Spy networks arent operated by slightly untrustworthy generals. So, you’re kinda wrong.
Karen would be the one to blame, but, really can you blame her? This was not a conventional move (understatement)
Re these generals: they were a bit distracted, mate. And again, you’re acting like this move was with precedent- as in, a third kingdom could reasonably be expected to show up, so, karen should have had spies watching all routes for that, in enemy territory, despite the risks.
Thats not the case, like, at all.
Please shut your mouth a about Hara-sama. And have a great day! Lol
No it’s not spy dumbass, that’s different. It’s called sentry. Spy have different job.
If you actually read history, even just Records of Three Kingdoms just so it’s more familliar with the Chinese history, it’s impossible to always “surprise” until the last moment about a 40k strong army. Generals are always aware if an army is incoming, the only time they are surprised are from ambushes. These “surprised” from the very last moment is bullshit ala lord of the rings.
So what if they’re distracted. Each army have sentries around it. Around each army there are people living and a 10k+ group of people will make tons of noise and impossible to miss, just from the nearby villagers and the clouds of dust 10k+ feet makes plus horses, from the noise, from the supply train and logistics following a large army.
There are 5 different armies in this battle. Thousands of soldiers. How the hell are they surprised that wei showed up? With those numbers and the way road systems work, it’s nigh impossible that chu should be surprised there’s an army making movements towards them.
To state the obvious:
Two nations join together to seige one nation’s outpost/strategically vital castle
Who gets the castle?
I’m not looking for you to answer. That question is itself is what you are overlooking.
And as a strategic location, there must be scouts monitoring every bordering army.
Yes, IRL this isn’t happening even with politics. Nobody stops monitoring one border because an army is coming from another. Qin would know too.
But it’s the needs of the story.
They ARE the border. Wei just crossed over.
And they might be monitoring if not already heing attacked.
You are not getting that while a fortification is being attacked by one kingdom, attack by a second is unlikely to the point that only a fool would allocate resources to watch for that, unless spies said to.
To put it another way “deception is the basis of all warfare” because a general has to act on available information with limited resources.
If one tries to cover for every possible unlikely possible hidden army, one will lose to the enemy in front.
Sorry one more thing in defense of Hara sama
Yall are talking about a location having scouts… when they can literally see the border of Chu from their walls.
…where would the scouts stand? On the wall?
Should they stand within eyesight of the wall at the edge of the border, and waive a flag if they see an army?
…buying Juuko ABOUT 5 Minutes of minutes if time??
If i were that scout, i would defect
Tyr’s absolutely correct. People keep forgetting about where Juuko is. Even the author said that “it stands at the crossroads”. You could literally throw a stone in every direction from Juuko to have it land in different countries. Chu just has significant influence in that territory, but even their own political leaders and generals have said that Chu itself cannot control the region – it’s those battle crazy warriors that do. They’d even cut down their allies without hesitation as shown in this chapter.
I am understanding enough.
Because they are on the border – which is what made the city valuable to begin with – they would be monitoring all other armies. You do not further allocate scouts, they are already there.
Just because one army shows up does not make the other scouting groups disappear. They should be all out there. You do not call in other scouts because they aren’t needed for fighting.
Just because they are attacked by one army doesn’t mean another would appear – alliances are made all the time and there are always vultures.
Chu in fact just witnessed this, being part of an alliance to destroy Qin.
The generals sitting there want a fight. They have far too many soldiers to only hold the city. They would have scouts out.
Wei needed to move soldiers about the same time as Qin, so the scouts that should be there should have found them.
If a general assume the rest of the world is static while they are being attacked, they are the fool.
So I don’t think your argument holds in the least bit.
His argument doesn’t holds in the least bit, and I’d add that even if another nation doesn’t join the party, being at a crossroad Qin could have walked a little in Wei’s territory just to catch Juuko from another spot.
So, even without an alliance, I’d keep scouting from every direction. If you could buy 10 minutes in a time like this, it could save your ass.
Tyr’s gonna apologize/enthusiastically support for anything that happens. One word: PLOT. That’s all, like half the things that happen in the manga are unreasonable IRL.
Just to chime in slightly…
Firstly on the issue of scouting/spies, let’s assume everyone does this and Chu isn’t just being lazy. So unless the spies actually see something there’s nothing to report, so much when Ousen took a trip to Gyou they can be caught by patrols. So likewise any reasonable commander would set patrols to ward off scouts/spies and maybe this time Wei got the better of them.
Next off, they’ve been “surprised”. I mean Gouhoumei says he still needs to deploy his army which alludes his army isn’t battle ready. Unlike the Qin and Chu reinforcements that are small enough that they can just charge in assuming Wei brought at least 50,000+ it’ll take time. So in any normal sense Chu would have time to reform and simply face them. The issue is their already fighting.
Thank you very much, what a great chapter!
Man’U is so awesome. Not only is he a supreme commander, he is also a football team. Forget blitzball: When I grow up, I want to be a Man’U
I mean it’s completely obvious that Qin have never ever used scouts in enemy territory, when Kanki was sieging Gyou Riboku coming to lift the siege took him completely by surprise With absolutely no warning or time to prepare.
Or when Qin were attacking Choyou, Qin just went with their first plan rather than using the information that Gohoumei with reinforcements had arrived, with Ou Hon never developing a new plan to deal with the new Wei’s army composition and positioning as Ou Hon clearly had no idea where Wei’s or Qin’s armies were.
I can’t imagine that after 500 years of warfare in a post Sun Tzu China that any lesson will have been learnt about having knowledge of your enemy’s position or that of potential reinforcements. I mean going into this battle Qin had absolutely no idea of where possible allied or enemy forces may come from right?
Heavy Sarcasm aside. Qin do often use Scouts, in their own and enemy territory to try and stop themselves getting surprised. If they didn’t have men on fast, plus spare, horses in the expected path of any Qin, Wei or Chu armies then what are Qin’s strategists doing. Karen May very well have sent a huge number of patrols to blind Qin and try and figure out what they’re planning but I think that any general/strategist would be keen to get even 5 minutes warning and risk deaths/defections to get that information.
Again, eveybody:
When an army is active an enemy territory, its called a “scout.”
When an army is in their own territory, an agent operating in enemy territory is called a spy.
They are NOT the same thing. At all.
This is a manga, but, criticizing it for lack of basic understanding is silly.
I’ll break it down for yall. Bc we ARE talking abt spies, that network would be run by Karen bc these general are not Chu natives.
If she got reports wei was on the move, and if wei was smart, karen would
Have seen multiple possible wei targets. Unless she’d also had spies in on the qin/wei meetings, which is extremely unlikely, juuko would have been very low on her list of possible targets.
Even so, she’d sent more than enough men to reasonably hold an “impregnable fortress,” so, she’s just sit back and wait.
Hara sama is great, the end.
Also, in case the difference between scouts and spies is still lost on ppl, a scout crosses an enemy border with an army. So, thats pretty easy, bc he/she is a scout and doesnt fight in border crossings.
A spy has to cross borders alone. So, its not like they can just go back to, say, juuko if they see an enemy army coming. Bc wei wouldve locked that border down as an anti-spy measure.
Borders are why spycraft uses secret ink and whatnot. See?
Don’t really know why we’ve got into some weird debate at who is a spy and who is a scout, it’s relatively straightforward are you dressed as a soldier or not when operating at its most basic level.
I’ll admit that bringing up Karen was unnecessary and has led to the discussion being diverted, however what it appears to be is that you are completely trying to confuse and derail the original debate as to why Qin were surprised by Wei and Chu reinforcements as any competent army, or you know what Qin have previously done in various battlefields, would have scouts to gather information and/or act as an early warning system, when moving through enemy territory.
Sorry mate, i can’t help you with that any more than i already have. Look at the map and try to think it through.
https://sensescans.com/reader/read/kingdom/en/60/650/page/15
If the spies were run by Karin even more reason that the Chu army was taken by surprise? Let’s assume her spies had perfect info, well how long would that information get to her? She’s in the capital not on the front lines, that message that Wei is coming to Qin’s aid would have taken time, and even if she was too say get an earlier warning, even if she sends “more aid” again that’s still time.
So gotta give thumbs up for the writing! Karin sees Moubu as doing something stupid, knows that he wouldn’t do that if he didn’t have a plan, and decides well I don’t know what your plan is but I suppose fighting another 30,000 Chu troops wasn’t part of it! So deal with it!
Right. In modern terms its like: lets say in a totally made up, not at all metaphoric nation called Grinare right now, a humor magazine published a “joke” just did that pissed off a lot of people. Some of those ppl might be angry enough to do horrible things. The Grinare police know this, so are on the lookout.
By the logic here, the police should have ppl planted in various organizations Around the globe that might try to hurt Grinare.
But thats not how it works. Thats not what police do, and, while an information network does exist, its a network, and, intellegence doesn’t instantly get to people on the front lines.
Thats just silly.
So ya, two or three thousand years ago, an army could realistically sneak up to a border. If there was enough stuff going on to distract the network. Like for example already being attacked by qin.
Btw, pls note I am praying for the safety of the Grinari. Or as close as I get to praying
F5
Replying here because I can’t for some reason directly respond to Tyr’s map.
“Mouki sir, look at this map, we are attacking Juuko to the Southeast, but we have further enemies to the South, Chu, and a possible enemy/ally to the East, Wei, should we take the precaution of having scouts to the East and South to try and locate any army movements.”
Mouki – “My gosh, we can clearly see where Chu and Wei would potentially come from, sending out scouts in those directions to locate and get as much warning of incoming armies as possible would certainly seem to be a risk we need to take, I know it will be dangerous but we need that information. I’m sure my father, Moubu, would be happy with better knowing where enemies and allies are as I am certain he has had some character development since getting Ouki killed in a trap at Bayou by just charging blindly in.”
“But sir, we may not get much warning or soldiers may defect?”
Mouki – “Seeing as every minute’s warning could save hundreds of Qin’s soldiers, sending out whatever we can to gather information is obviously the priority.”
This is unbelievable.
You know those lines on the map? Where on one side it says “chu”, another “wei” or “qin”
Those are borders.
See, along those lines, men called soldiers are standing watch, on roads and in countrysides, for enemy agents coming in either direction.
If a “scout” tries to cross that line, he is killed unless he manages to sneak through, which is difficult.
If a scout sends a pigeon, the pigeon has to fly through without getting taken down by a hawk.
Like, wow yall. Wow
Like, wow
The whole point of those little lines, you see, is they denote “sphere of influence” PAST WHICH UD NEED SPIES OR ARMIES, BECAUSE ITS ENEMY TERRITORY AND IF YOU SEND ONE MAN, OR FIVE, they’ll die.
Really???
Nerd
Yep. But at least i have reading comprehension
Partly im so shocked is, characters like moubu and tou have spent the majority of the series guarding borders. What do yall think they were doing? Tea parties and endless training drills? Bubble baths?
…maybe they were overseeing the soldiers watching for “scouts?” Just a thought
The frikkin hi shin unit had border duty at the chu border for a while for fucks sake
There is absolutely no need for scouts to cross the borders unless they have to, it is clear that Qin have a good idea of where possible enemies/allies are coming from because of where each state’s territories are, your scouts would be sent out in those directions to give your main army as much notice as possible that armies were approaching. Where the scouts are positioned depends on how much warning you are trying to get/risk you’re ordering them to undertake. If it’s 15 minutes warning from the main army then the scouts may still be within the Juuko region, the more warning you want the more likely they are to end up crossing borders to try and give you that warning, with the scouts obviously more likely to die the further they are away from the main army and the closer they are to enemy forces as they can’t escape being chased.
Balancing the risk and how much warning you get, and possibly having a high mortality rates amongst scouts to get you whatever notice possible to protect your army is the job of a commander, you order certain men to die to win/minimise the overall death toll. The fact that none of your scouts returned in itself useful information as a warning that there may be enemies coming from that direction.
NEET
You keep assuming those scouts would make it back if you send the. Across enemy lines. They’d have to cross the lines twice, alone. Please consider this assumption.
You may want to rethink your risk assessment for sending scouts across enemy lines. The whole point of enemy lines is to prevent men like scouts from crossing. Even if in this situation you are wei and qin, there’s no reason at all that would change.
Or, how about we compromise and say, ok yeah some fool did make scouts cross the wei border to look for armies. But wei, making an obvious-beyond-“textbook” move, increased border security before the attack.
The scout had to move ad quickly as possible to stay ahead of the army and make it in time for the report to matterz
When the border men saw a man in armor riding alone at full speed, they shot him with an arrow in the shoulder, then tortured him for info until he died.
…the wei army’s attack was a surprise. Because of The basic-beyond-textbook Anti-intellegence measures.
Here’s a fun history fact:
The first matathoner was a soldier. He saw an army successfully abt to sneak attack his, but they were 24 miles away. So he ran at full speed to get to his army to tell them. He died after delivering the message, but to honor him, his comrades ran a marathon every year.
Take-aways: 1) sneak attacks happened. PERIOD. 2) when one man’s efforts stopped one, he was remembered forever, so they were a thing that happened a lot. I mean, if no one in that army had ever had another army pop up out of nowhere, why would they have cared so much?
Sneak attacks depend on anti-intellegence. Wars are fought on multiple fronts.
Now, can you imagine the marathoner trying to evade an enemy army on mile 23, to cross a border?
…he’d die.
Hi Tyr, hope you are well and I appreciate your efforts to find a middle ground, I also enjoy your history fact. However, I’m unsure as to why you are focussed on Qin scouts trying to cross Chu or Wei borders as I believe my premise clearly highlights that Qin scouts will only try to cross borders when absolutely necessary/forced to by Qin command, it is all dependent on how much warning Qin’s main army want to get (versus what they can get) without entering Chu or Wei.
I’m also confused as to why Wei will kill Qin scouts, rather than begrudingly forcing/encoruaging them back/giving them the message that Wei are helping Qin, when Wei (at least before the reader knows Wei notify Qin) know they have a 3 year alliance with Qin.
Also I’m not sure Qin can be sneak attacked by Chu or Wei, provided Qin deploy proper pickets, as Qin know going into this battle that this is where potential enemies will come from, particularly as you’ve highlighted, the strength of border guards suggests that troops will only be moving from their states territory rather than bulling through another states border guards to try and surprise other states.
To summarise, I still believe that Qin would try to get what warnings they could regarding possible enemy incursions/ambushes, so they can re-position troups where necessary, by treating scouts as disposable milatary assets if requried to gather data, known or inferred, on enemy/possible enemy troup positions.
…so ur wei and you let qin scouts freely gather intel in wei
Ok dude.
I regret having gone this far
I will say, yes, counter intellegence does not always mean killing known enemy agents.
But i dont really know or care abt the whole qin scout thing. Wei’s not going to make special arrangements to let qin spy, and, its already been written, moubu and mouten said “wait for word” (not scouts) and moubu didnt.
The original thing folk were mad at is “how wei snuck up, and whether it was believable.” I was talking about that.
Now good day
You’re operating under the presumption that a border is static during the time two, three armies are fighting in the area?
10k soldiers is enough to be seen miles away… this is all kinda plot device rather that linear significant historical narrative. It’s a fun time, not how it would have been…
i must be really blind, but how much army number did wei sent
Hi Tyr, pretty sure that my thought process is clear that Wei would not allow Qin to cross the Wei border and instead at the very least would only begrudingly allow any Qin scouts to be caught by Wei on either side of the border to live at the very minimum. I also believe that my premise is relatively clear on the fact that Qin scouts crossing the Wei or Chu borders is only dependent on the amount of warning time the Qin forces are looking for.
Moubu has charged into the Juuko forces, however, given his development from Bayou through the coalition war, I cannot believe that he would just resort to “Hulk Smash” or his charge would prevent his HQ/Mouki having scouts to ensure that the Qin army did not get ambushed by Chu/Wei/Juuko forces with no warning.
Also I’m not sure why you have asserted that people, I assume Bulls, were originally mad just about the Wei army sneaking up. Looking at this chapter, there is reference to the size of the Chu reinforcement army (page 3 30k strong) and the size of the Wei army (page 14 ten’s of thousand). It seems that Bulls could be referring to either/or or both.
So whilst Qin thought that Wei may turn up, and even if they did may attack or ally with Qin. I’ll admit that the Chu army was more of a surprise but yet again I do not understand why Qin would not have had scouts in the direction (without necessarily crossing borders, i.e. could just be between the battlefield and national borders) of where they expected troops to come from so they weren’t caught completely off guard.
The border is within site distance of juuko. So for a scout, “in the vacinity of the border” = 10 steps out of qin base camp
As to the rest… yawn
Sorry but Truth
Ok, i admit i was exaggerating for effect. And bc this is kinda silly
Based on the maps, For a qin scout to look into wei’s territory for signs of an army… is probably 59 steps
For real tho, some advice? “for examination of a leaf, the sight of the forest was lost.”
Consider that… the thing abt war and martial arts is, the guys and gals who focus too much on any one thing get eaten. So, even just to enjoy this, consider what it could mean to widen your gaze.
Sorry but Yawn*
We have no idea what scale the map is or how big the Juuko region is, seeing as an army of 80k can sally out to fight to somewhere that appears to be outside the sight of the city, and the fact that modern day China is the 3rd largest country in the world, making a small region potentially substantial in size, I’m going to guess that Juuko is more than 60 steps from other state’s borders.
I can very much enjoy the manga without feeling like I can’t critique it, or feel like I have to listen to someone who appears to make random assertions and comments rather than actually respond on points of discussion. Have a nice day!
You are wrong. Reread.
The fact that juuko soldiers could see moubu approaching, when he camped on qin’s side, and, the fact that qin camped on their side of the border to attack juuko clearly gives a sense of scale. Your field of focus was just too narrow to catch it
Unless you think moubu’s base camp is miles away from his army.
Oh, forests and leaves…
owh my… i js love those 4, chu’s freak general 😀
Hi Tyr, page 3, chapter 650, messenger riding from outside of the city to let Juuko know that Qin have bypassed Kishi and so therefore must be attacking Juuko, this also suggests that Moubu’s army is potentially in enemy territory at this stage but it is not clear, although Moubu being in Chu/Juuko territory would make it far easier for the Juuko scouts to know what they’re doing because they don’t have to cross Qin’s border.
It doesn’t seem that Juuko can see Qin from the city. We have no idea of the scale and how long the rider has ridden to get them the information. However, it is enough time for them to muster 80k troops and sally out to the Gecchi Plains. Which would presumably take hours as a minimum. So Juuko is probably of some size.. As armies, with infantry, move slowly you’d only need the Juuko region to be a few miles in diameter. Scouts on horseback detecting infantry movements even a few miles away could then give you quite a bit of warning.
If you’re a troll posting to see how many ignorant statements i’d respond to, slow clap: this is your victory
If not: juuko was introduced as being on the border of four nations, which is the whole point of juuko. And Monbu’s camped on qin’s side, not chu, so, ur just plain wrong.
I’m really hoping you’re a defy and calculating troll.
*deft
Just because you’re on the border of four nations doesn’t mean you have don’t have a reasonable amount of land surrounding the city to ensure you can grow enough food for 100,000s of people living in your city, Not sure Juuko would take handouts from Chu. Also seems that on page 15 chapter 650 Juuko controls a region rather than just being a city.
You’ve made a big deal about Qin not being able to know where Chu and Wei reinforcements would come from when scouts would have to cross border lines, so I’m not sure why you think Juuko would know about Moubu’s movement’s unless they’re moving through Chu/Juuko territory, and bypassing other Chu cities. Also not sure why you assert that Moubu must be in Qin territory. Looking at page 13, chapter 650, on Karin’s war table it doesn’t look like Moubu’s army is sitting on a border. The fact that there’s no fortifications, trenches or anything between the two armies would suggest that the armies are not fighting on a border.
The map on page 15 chapter 650, seems to be giving us an overview of the 4 bordering states, not sure that we know for certain that the army Moubu is with is the one on the Qin’s side. What those troops could probably be, are the 150k troops of Moubu’s main army that has been left on the border Qin-Chu border to protect it, page 11 chapter 650. All this would suggest that Moubu and 30k are almost certainly in Chu/Juuko territory.
Not sure where you’ll go from here, maybe throw some more insults around and wild assertions?
gosh, for your sake, please be a troll.
Only an idiot would farming on the front lines of disputed territory, sending scout alone into enemy territory… oh my.
Hopefully you’re not one who called shin an idiot! Lol
*only an idiot would try
The farmers would leave. Soldiers trample crops
If ur asking how food gets to juuko. These things called “roads” were invented some time ago. Look into it
So to summarise, you disregard any points I’ve made based on evidence which suggests you’re wrong as to where Moubu’s army is and skip to insults. Rather you solely focus on the ancillary point of food production, rather than Juuko’s size which does seem to be a region rather than just a cuty. You disregard whether Juuko would accept food aid from the rest of Chu rather than try to be self sufficient as they seek like a pretty independent bunch. You disregard the fact that states constantly have civilians in disputed areas and actively move civilians to those disputed areas: Gyou, Choyou etc.
I’m still waiting for anything that resembles are reasoned point from Tyr the Troll or just more insults…
Reasoned point: moubu camped in qin to attack juuko
Therefore, the distance between juuko and qin is Like 1/4 mile tops
Therefor, ur wrong, abt everything
(This is something i rarely say. Truth tends not to be absolute… but… here, it kinda is)
I do apologize for my rude comments, however. Historically, not being able to tell one’s ass from one’s hand re: battle is extremely common, and, its weirdly something that smart people struggle with the most, i think.
My source there is “the art of war,” which has a whole section on how the ministers and nobles will issue ridiculously stupid orders to generals on a regular basis, and advises generals what to do abt it.
It does not suggest “try to argue them into seeing reason.”
Now, I get why. Forests and leaves
In fact, using the logic of war, i can tell you exactly how far the borders are from juuko.
They are far enough that, if an army from juuko crosses them, their opponent could easily cut them off from juuko (base camp).
Which would be at a distance of the perfect spot for your basecamp, btw 🙂
Sorry you haven’t figured this out. Tyr is literally THE fanboy that has zero tolerance for any other viewpoint other than those that fit in his narrow point of view. You’ll quickly be wrong and ignored in discourse with him.
My suggestion? Spend less time trying to prove a “Never Wrong” wrong, actually just call him out with more brevity instead. It’s satisfying.
You tell ‘im, malpheus! That guy’s the worst
Fair point Malpheus, for a fanboy he does seem to like to focus more on his art of war references and ignore what Hara has previously written in his manga, Karin’s map just must have quite a small scale with the Qin border just out of sight. Moubu also must have just moved his small army from Qin really really slowly to give Juuko plenty of time to ride out to meet him. and for Chu command to get the information that Moubu was moving, Karin to issue an order for reinforcements to go and for those reinforcements to arrive the same day as the Juuko army, thinking about that, Chu’s messenger hawks must actually be super fast.
We must also be in sight of the city and Juuko be a tiny region with some forests/hills blocking the line of sight South where Chu forces would come from, and east where the Wei border and Wei forces have come from, so the scouts even if you sent them out, whilst Moubu was moving really slowly, then couldn’t get you any warning whatsoever because the Wei border is so close and you couldn’t cross it and er some other reason why you couldn’t detect Chu reinforcements, or even try to. The forests/hills must also be there to allow forces to surprise and get the jump on you, rather than the Moubu army, and later Tou army, being able to see another army approaching from miles off, so they had very little time to react.
Dude, you’re wrong!! Lol
You are now making up “maybe” explinations that make little sense to try and explain away being wrong. Read and see, lol.
Juuko is right on the border, hara said so
Now, lets go back to talking shit abt tyr
The annoying fucker calls ppl out of un-thought out critiques!
Heck, he even goes so far as to say “if ur gonna criticise sometbing, make sense or stfu, ya negative nancies”
Asshole!
Like, suure maybe mobu did camp miles away from juuko, see, he wanted to make it really easy for chu to flank him, or, just march into his camp, kill all his attendants and burn his food. That makes sense
Ok, for real tho? This is to anyone else, other than these two- assuming maybe like 1 other really bored person cares
People here say things i disagree with all the time. I usually think nothing of it, i only fight (verbally) when i believe in something enough to. But, if someone asks a genuine question, and i think i can answer, i do, bc i believe in inquiry and communuty
I have repeatedly seen here inane attacks on the manga and hara. Far less, now, bc there’s an annoying asshole who points out the logical flaws of poorly thought critiques. But, when they reach a saturation point, people then start talking about being “done with kingdom- it affects KINGDOM’S GLOBAL FANBASE.
I want this story to be cannon.
That is enough reason for me to be ok with mal’s poor opinion of me. No regrets
What’s funny is I actually like debating with you. Get on discord.
Cool beans Tyr. To be fair Qin are pretty good are getting their food burnt and camping in enemy territory
It happened once, its too be avoided.
See, the point of war is, your enemy is trying to beat you. So you have to think of all the things they might do- not just one- and come up with an inherently risky plan. The word for it is a “strategy”
To be clear, only a terrible, soon to be killed or executed genera would camp A significant distance from base camp. Heck the phrase is “BASE camp.”
Moubu learned this himself in the battle where ouki died. He went far from camp, got wiped out, Ouki died saving his ass.
Cool, like send out scouts South because you expect Chu reinforcements whilst protecting your main camp?
That doesnt make any sense. You’d send your army south to attack, and yes, you’d have guys(scouts) keeping track of enemy movements as a matter of course.
If you need extra scouts to warn of your base camp being attacked, you’re camped too far away and are already screwed. You’d be allocating scouting resources poorly, unnecessarily tiring your men with needless long distance marching between base and field. You’re also widening the area your army needs to defend needlessly, and opening up your base camp to attack… so you’d need more camp guards, another total waste of resources.
Ok, thats it, i quit. If there was a point here, its been made
Yup, you’d have scouts keeping track of Chu and Wei movements as a matter of course so Qin wouldn’t get surprised. Glad we agree
Sure, we agree now lol. We disagreed on things like “theyre dumb for not sending scouts over borders and the somewhat obvious small scale of the map of juuko/area of combat. And its implications of scout placement, intelligence expectations, and the validity of surprise attacks.
Mostly, we disagreed that hara got this wrong or didnt think it through. He didn’t, because he always does.
Okay, I don’t normally post but I feel the need to clarify a few thing after reading this argument as someone with a degree in military history. There are three terms that need to be defined here; spy, scout, and patrol.
First, a spy is not usually a member of the military or do they report to them. They were often managed by a separate branch located in the nations capital so that they could report directly to the higher ups. This is due to the fact that they often gained information of a non military nature. They never wore uniforms, and were sometimes not even members of the nation they were spying for but sympathisers.
Second, a scout is a profession working in the military and army that has existed since recorded history. There is also a difference between a scout and going scouting. A professional scout was often not a soldier, but a woodsman or hunter who could survive on his own in the wilderness as they often worked alone or in very small groups. They did so in order to not be caught by the enemy. They did not wear uniforms and often identified one another by call signs. They absolutely did cross borders by sneaking through the wilderness which armies could not effectively patrol. Horses did not ride in a forest, no matter the trail, at least not at any great speed as horses were far too valuable. Some generals were even reported to refuse to march without their scouts returning. Some scouts were even showered with gifts upon their return in order to entice them to stay as it was such a risky job. Scouts often fought amongst one another long before the armies ever saw each other.
Soldiers did scout in the form of larger scouting parties. But this was often far closer to hq or alongside the army to act as an early warning system. They only went further if the professional scouts failed to return alive. The Chinese loved to send body parts back of caught scouts. These scouting parties also acted to catch he enemies professional scouts that were getting close to their army.
Finally, patrols are not a function that was meant to gain information. Patrolling was a job given to soldiers or units in order to provide safety between camps or cities or even along a border. Yes they fought if necessary but they often provided safety through just their presence. You patrol between or along a designated route, not at random. Also, border patrols were not perfect, scouts often made it through and back again without death.
In conclusion, it is quite conceivable that Qin did not see the Chu reinforcements coming as they came from deep within an enemy nation. However, there is no chance that Tou or Wei snuck up on anyone as they moved along a border, a significant amount of scouts would have had to be hunted down and killed. Also, there is no army that moves faster than scouts, especially not with infantry that is fully armoured, or a supply chain for that matter. Added to this, an army on the move is extremely noisy and also kicks up an insane amount of dust that would be visible from a long way off especially when we’re talking of a force that numbers in the 10,000s.
These large surprise attacks you here about are usually pre-prepared ambushes that armies walk into, for example the Romans walking into an ambush laid by Hannibal. This is so to the fact that the ambushes are not moving and are keeping quiet until the order is given. In fact Juuko would have allowed Chu scouts to penetrate even further into enemy territory with more safety, not less.
A border is not an absolute boundary that no one could sneak across. A scout does not turn into a spy when crossing a border. A spy does not scout. This is a misrepresentation caused by people using terms incorrectly.
To end, I’m not upset by the lack of realism as it would be less enjoyable if the manga were realistic. I view this manga as a more fantastical telling of this period of history which moves toward historical fiction.
I hope this cleared up any misunderstandings you two had about military terminology and what would be historically accurate.
That is extremely helpful. Thank you. (I am not a military historian, just a dude)
I will consider what you’ve said. Everything you’ve stated sounds accurate: to a degree, i was using shorthand.
Non armored scouts could sneak across borders, but, they’d have to sneak. They also wouldnt have been ties to juuko’s army directly, that network would be an expense karin would not allow. Moubu doesnt seem the type, at all, to refuse to move, especially in this case. Clearly, from the convo with mouten, he respected his strength and trusted his chain of command. He wouldnt have bothered.
I 1000 agree about not being upset at the lack of realism. Soldiers at war spent an awful lot of time staring at eachother. Not a thrilling read 😀
I am still assuming the borders would be harder to pass, on wei’s side, given anti-intelligence associated with a surprise attack.
Sorry, to clarify, the generals of juuko defected to chu. I dont think it would be wise to allow them to operate information networks (spies or scouts, I retract stating it would ONLY be spies, thanks) in foreign soil, and, has factored that in. Juuko is considered to be impregnable, so, I’d think chu would see it as an unnecessary risk.
Sorry! Lastly, a question: the dust and noise of an approaching army, would they be visable on an active battlefield? Wouldnt the dust and noise from the active field obscure them?
Ive been wondering. I decided “yes,” but, uncertain.
Hm, answered for myself. “It depends on which way the wind is blowing.”
In this case, if the winds were blowing northeast, the dust from wei would not have been noticeable. If blowing southwest, it wouldve been very noticable: if another direction, it depends on factors.
LOL, like I said this “invisible large army suprise” is getting old and repetitive. We all know this is a romantic retelling of history, not real history. But what surprise me is that there is someone thought this is realistic and possible.
LOL, like I said this “invisible large army suprise” is getting old and repetitive. We all know this is a romantic retelling of history, not real history. But what surprise me is that there is someone thought this is realistic and possible.
Correct, Juuko would most likely not have access to the Chu intelligence network. However, they would most likely still have short range scouts to keep on an eye on their immediate surroundings.
And yes depending on the weather and point of view you may not see much dust or be able to hear over the sound of battle. Which is why most armies have light cavalry roaming about at their flanks. It is also why you see strategists in high chairs and positioned further back, in order to better their line of sight and to hear as best as possible.
And I whole heartedly agree, we must take Moubu and the Juuko generals as Hara presents them, very hard headed. They may not employ as many counter measures as other generals. And of course Tou and the Wei General, who are depicted as very smart, probably would have very advanced anti scout networks. We should probably just assume this rather than have Hara double the number of chapters in order to explain it, that would simply be bad story telling.
Overall, I think Hara is simply trying to convey the suddenness and chaos of the battle as nothing seems to be going exactly as planned, and no one predicted all of the events that have occurred or the parties that have arrived.
Word. Only two response: i assume juuko general’s advanced scouts have a limited range, based on my reading of the map. I assume that the scouts on both sided gave warning, just not much.
I think you’d agree- Hara is really good at arranging details like general’s personality and status to make unlikely outcomes situationally (more) plausible, and always and only to the end of making kindom
Exciting. He impresses me.
And ya, moubu is nuts lol
Oh, but it should also be mention, moubu and tou having intelligence networks in wei may have been a bad idea. They just signed a non-aggression pact, to qin’s benifit. Wei was sceptacle. Having any agents captured in wei right now could easily have diplomatic and military consequences.
Moubu may be crazy but i’m not positive he was wrong, past a point. Shouhunkein or whatever, he’s a commander to trust.
G
Apologies, accidentally commented a letter. Yes Moubu and Tou probably refrained from from scouting within Wei as that could cause and issue due date o perceived aggression. However, Qin would not remove spies in cover due to the length of time it took to establish them. In fact nations sort of expect it from one another even restraining themselves from revealing spies so as to feed them false information or to cause an incident when it is most opportune.
And yes Hara is very good at creating these scenarios. For me the most interesting part is Moubu’s insistence on the day of battle. Indeed the Juuko army even goes to him to fight on a battle field of his choosing, of course actually chosen by Shouheikun. This is actually very realistic. Ancient Generals were sticklers for punctuality as no forms of instant communication were available. Moubu engages the enemy thus keeping them occupied. The Chu reinforcements may have been unforeseen but Tou and Wei were definitely informed of the time and place. This meant that the two armies could possibly speed up the last part of their journey by leaving behind the supplies at a safe location and quickly close in on the enemy before they could properly disengage from Moubu.
So yes the details of the scouting may be left out for the sake of story telling. But the insistence of the exact day of battle is incredibly realistic. But Moubu would have to have extreme faith in Shouheikun to follow through with this which he does seem to have.
Ya!
I find moubu’s answer to mouten a bit scary tho. He maybe implies all that truth about punctuality- and definately would have felt that way.
But what he said was: “Moubu Smash!”
I worry he hasn’t learned caution, after his spanking from riboku, he really should have.
Did he proceed for the right reasons? Time will tell
Also, please, please, please comment more.
This is very fun for me 🙂
Hahaha, I shall try to comment more often. With Moubu’s response, it is worrying for a number of reasons.
First, Moubu seems to have far too much confidence in himself and his strength, there is always someone stronger, or at least there will be as he gets older and thus less physically in his prime.
Second, these plans do not seem to be his own or even those of his strategists. The inability to react to situations that are happening on the field due to the reliance on a strategy made weeks before can be problematic, no matter how ingenious the strategy.
Finally, his absolute trust in Shouheikun. Hara seems to stick with to history when it comes to the general loyalties of his characters and an absolute trust in Shouheikun may not be well placed (without giving too much away to those not fully read in this area of history).
Tou may be stuck moubu-sitting forever. Lol
Hehe, Tou will indeed probably have to help Moubu a great deal due to his reliance on an extremely long distance strategist.
Mouki’s talented enough to help w that, but i think moubu will continue to say “stfu, moubu SMASH!” To his objections
Heck, maybe he right, and so strong it doesn’t matter? Sure, that didnt work so well for him before when he charged into an obvious trap, but, maybe next time???
*worried*
Hello spammer. Tyr so great but she can’t create her own scanlation. NEET
After seeing this big-ass discussion), I coudn`t help, but to add my 2 cents.
Any story should be viewed not from outside perspective, but from inside, meaning that if something is A in the story you should accept it as it is, even if IRL it`s C, D or E. But if it`s A in the story it must remain A and not become B without any explanation. Meaning that as long inner-story logic is sound and not self-contradicting it should be accepted as the way that world works.
I fully agree, implementing real world logic does not make sense here. However, discussing Hara’s use of the the portrayal of time can be interesting. Tou arrives with Rokuomi bear Moubu’s left flank, if I’m remembering correctly. Tou then engages on the left while Rokuomi goes to engage on the right. It is then immediately depicted that the Chu reinforcements arrive near the Qin right flank. In this most recent chapter it is then shown that Rokuomi has already fully engaged the enemy when the Chu reinforcements begin their assault. I highly doubt Hara expects us to believe that his armies teleport or can march an entire battle field in under 10 minutes. Thus I hope we can assume that he means this to show that there is a gap of at least an hour or two between these two events even though it only happens in a matter of a few pages. In this way we keep this discussion in the realm of Kingdom storytelling logic. How authors depict the passage of time is a part of their skill set that fascinates me.
Ya, hara’s use of detail is fascinating, but perhaps telling.
I’ve read accounts of battle geniuses, and a theme is “take advantage of the unique conditions of this particular battle. Which the enemy may not.”
Like the battle of st. Crispin’s day…
So, each battle depicted unfolds in specific ways Hara dictates, to create exciting battles.
But, a general would have to look at all the conditions hara manipulates to form a plan… is it really unrealistic, if we think that in manga kingdom land, hara=god? Lol
Update; i just read up on that st crispin’s day battle. My comparison still stands, but, for different reasons than I thought. I guess Shakespeare made up the part about rain mattering. It came down to “the small size of the field” adding effectiveness to english longbows, per wikipedia.
Ah you have chosen my favourite battle, the battle of Agincourt. Now I’m not sure I would call the strategy genius but rather a stoke of brilliance in an otherwise failure of a campaign. It was simple, and played to their strengths which is all it took. Now it is worth noting, that due to the lack of discipline in European feudal armies, uses of complicated formations were very limited and often battles became repetitive when it came to strategy. They used what worked. Of course there were a few nuances, but not as much signalling and mid battle changes from strategists as the more disciplined Roman and Chinese armies earlier in history. And you are correct a large part of English success was due to the narrow battlefield due to woodlands. But you were also right the first time, the terrain was muddy from rain, though it was not raining on that particular day. Either way a great battle that saved a doomed campaign and allowed for English dominance in the war with France.
I’m very glad Shakespeare and kenneth braughnah arent dirty liars lol
Yes, i butchered kenneth’s name but COME ON
What is the old saying about a turnip truck?
What does it mean to fall off the turnip wagon?
What is the saying fall off the turnip truck?
Who is the owner of turnip truck?